Episode 5: Wisdom Frontiers (with Dilip Jeste, Barry Schwartz, and Justin Brienza)

Can wisdom live beyond the individual, in the organizations we build, and the technologies we create? In the final episode of our special series, Dilip Jeste, Barry Schwartz, and Justin Brienza join Igor and Charles to explore the frontiers of wisdom research, from neuroscience to the design of wiser institutions. Dilip takes us inside the brain systems involved in empathy, emotion regulation, and perspective-taking, while explaining why measuring wisdom remains such a challenge. Barry turns to the organizations we spend our lives in, revealing how even well-intentioned people can make poor judgments when the culture around them gets in the way, and why better decisions depend on creating environments where people can learn from their mistakes. Justin asks how we might build wisdom into institutions themselves, from red-teaming and premortems to incentives that encourage dissent, stewardship, and collective responsibility. The series arrives at one final question: if we can build machines that are increasingly intelligent, what would it mean to make them wise?

Special Guests: Barry Schwartz, Dilip Jeste, and Justin Brienza.

Links:

• Barry Schwartz: Our loss of wisdom | TED Talk
• Wisdom in action: A call to bridge fields in psychology (and beyond) to solve complex world problems | American Psychologist. Advance online publication - Glück, J., & Brienza, J. P. (2025)
• Transforming artificial intelligence into artificial wisdom | Nat. Mental Health 4, 886–897 - Jeste, D.V., Paulus, M.P., Alexopoulos, G.S. et al. (2026)
• Imagining and building wise machines: The centrality of AI metacognition | Trends in Cognitive Sciences - Johnson, S. G., Karimi, A. H., Bengio, Y., Chater, N., Gerstenberg, T., Larson, K., ... & Grossmann, I. (2026)

Episode 4: Interventions and Training (with Judith Glück, Ethan Kross, and Kristján Kristjánsson)

Can we actually learn to be wiser? Judith Glück, Ethan Kross, and Kristján Kristjánsson join Igor and Charles to explore what it takes to develop better judgment, and why getting older or going through difficult experiences doesn't necessarily make us wiser. Judith explains why even people with the right knowledge and reasoning skills can struggle to use them when emotions take over, Ethan reveals how stepping back from our own problems can help us see them in a new light, and Kristján explores the ancient idea of practical wisdom, why it matters for moral development, and how it might be cultivated. Igor and Charles reflect on why experience alone isn't enough, and what it takes to turn difficult situations into opportunities for wiser judgment. But can we take what we know about individual wisdom and use it to build wiser organizations and societies?

Special Guests: Ethan Kross, Judith Glück, and Kristján Kristjánsson.

Links:

• Navigating the Unknown: The Sociocultural and Metacognitive Architecture of Wisdom (accepted) | Annual Review of Psychology, Volume 78 - Igor Grossmann and Nic M. Weststrate
• The Wisdom Researchers and the Elephant: An Integrative Model of Wise Behavior - Judith Glück and Nic M. Weststrate (2022)
• Self-Distancing: Theory, Research, and Current Directions - E. Kross , O. Ayduk (2017)
• Exploring Solomon’s Paradox: Self-Distancing Eliminates the Self-Other Asymmetry in Wise Reasoning About Close Relationships in Younger and Older Adults - Igor Grossmann and Ethan Kross (2014)
• Phronesis (Practical Wisdom) as a Key to Moral Decision-Making: Comparing Two Models - Maria Silvia Vaccarezza, Michel Croce, Kristján Kristjánsson (2023)

Episode 3: Measuring Wisdom (with Judith Glück, Monika Ardelt, and Eranda Jayawickreme)

Can we actually measure wisdom, or are we just measuring how wise people think they are? Judith Glück, Monika Ardelt, and Eranda Jayawickreme join Igor and Charles to explore what happens when we try to turn wisdom into something we can quantify. Judith reveals the surprising differences between questionnaires, performance tests, and assessments of people in real situations, Monika makes the case that wisdom involves a stable quality of character built around reflection, cognition and compassion, and Eranda asks whether we might be better off thinking of traits as patterns of behaviour that change from one situation to another. Along the way, Igor and Charles confront a fundamental question about what a wisdom score is actually telling us, and discover that the answer may be less about choosing between traits and states than understanding how they fit together. But if wisdom is a pattern of states, can we change that pattern?

Special Guests: Eranda Jayawickreme, Judith Glück, and Monika Ardelt.

Links:

• Navigating the Unknown: The Sociocultural and Metacognitive Architecture of Wisdom (accepted) | Annual Review of Psychology, Volume 78 - Igor Grossmann and Nic M. Weststrate

Episode 2: Metacognition and Judgment (with Gord Pennycook, Steve Fleming, and Thomas Costello)

Is thinking harder always the key to making better decisions, or can it sometimes make things worse? Gord Pennycook, Steve Fleming, and Thomas Costello join Igor and Charles to explore what happens when we start thinking about our own thinking. Gord reveals why intelligence and rationality aren't the same thing, and why simply thinking more isn't necessarily the answer, Steve takes us inside the machinery that helps us monitor and regulate our decisions, and Thomas explores what intellectual humility is, how we might recognize it, and why being confident about our own competence can be so misleading. Along the way, Igor and Charles uncover a three-part cycle at the heart of wise judgment: seeking input, resolving conflicts, and monitoring what happens next. So what does it take to become better at knowing what we know, and what we don't?

Special Guests: Gord Pennycook, Steve Fleming, and Thomas Costello.

Links:

• Navigating the Unknown: The Sociocultural and Metacognitive Architecture of Wisdom (accepted) | Annual Review of Psychology, Volume 78 - Igor Grossmann and Nic M. Weststrate

Episode 1: Exemplars and Narratives (with Cristine Legare, Dan McAdams, and L.A. Paul)

When we face life challenges, where do our ideas about wise judgment, or even wisdom writ large come from, and how do they shape the way we work through such challenges and live thereafter? Cristine Legare, Dan McAdams, and L.A. Paul join Igor and Charles to explore the stories, proverbs, and exemplars we inherit, and what happens when they don't quite fit the situation in front of us. Cristine reveals why the ideas that stick with us aren't necessarily the ones that are true, Dan explores how the stories we tell about ourselves can help us navigate uncertainty (or trap us in the wrong story), and Laurie asks who (or what) is doing the choosing, if we can’t know in advance how a life-changing decision will transform us?

Special Guests: Cristine Legare, Dan McAdams, and L.A. Paul.

Links:

• Navigating the Unknown: The Sociocultural and Metacognitive Architecture of Wisdom (accepted) | Annual Review of Psychology, Volume 78 - Igor Grossmann and Nic M. Weststrate

Igor and Charles share and discuss responses from 57 of the world's leading behavioral and social scientists, collected as part of the World After Covid project. Each episode, four responses are selected. This time, the conversation covers themes of social support, sympathy & compassion, acknowledging uncertainty, and balancing diverse interests in the midst of the pandemic. Igor points out that humanity has a greater capacity for accepting and managing uncertainty than we might realize, and Charles is intrigued by the often-overlooked benefits of interactions with strangers.

Featuring:
Katie McLaughlin, John L. Loeb Associate Professor of the Social Sciences at Harvard University
Barbara Fredrickson, Kenan Distinguished Professor of Psychology and Neuroscience at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Dilip Jeste, Distinguished Professor of Psychiatry and Neurosciences at University of California, San Diego
Valerie Tiberius, Paul W. Frenzel Chair in Liberal Arts and Professor of Philosophy at the University of Minnesota

Links:

• World After Covid site
• Igor Grossmann's homepage — interactive visualizations and analysis on the World After Covid project
• Expert Predictions of Societal Change: Insights from the World after COVID Project - Grossmann, Twardus, Varnum, Jayawickreme, McLevey (2021, in press)
• Everyone Was Wrong on the Pandemic’s Societal Impact: Foreign Policy - Varnum, Hutcherson, Grossmann (2021)
• Estimating societal effects of COVID-19 - Hutcherson, Sharpinsky, Varnum, Rotella, Wormley, Tay, Grossmann (2021, preprint)
• How Life Could Get Better (or Worse) After COVID (berkeley.edu)
• Words of wisdom: 4 tips from experts on how to endure until the COVID-19 pandemic ends (The Conversation)
• Katie McLaughlin Interview — full interview and transcript on the World After Covid site
• Barbara Fredrickson Interview — full interview and transcript on the World After Covid site
• Dilip Jeste Interview — full interview and transcript on the World After Covid site
• Valerie Tiberius Interview — full interview and transcript on the World After Covid site